How educators can support neurodiversity with Lizzie Somerfield

Speaker 1: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Moodle Podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:10

Hello everyone. And welcome. My name is Lucy Sherwood and today we're talking all about neurodiversity. My guest today is Lizzie Summerfield, who is a neurodiversity advocate . I think you're really gonna love this episode. Let's get started.

Speaker 3: 0:26

Okay . Hi Lizzie .

Speaker 4: 0:28

Hi. Yeah , how are you doing?

Speaker 3: 0:30

Good, thank you. Okay . Firstly, let's start with obviously the most important question of this whole podcast is about what is neurodiversity and what forms does neurodiversity to take and what does it include?

Speaker 4: 0:42

Uh, so I think neurodiversity is like best explained in relation to the concept of biodiversity. So if you think like there is almost limitless variety of life honor , there is equally almost limitless varieties in the form that a human's brain can kinda take the term's like quite relatively new or coined in the late nineties. And it's both , I think, a new way of looking at neurological disability, but it's also a human rights movement. So if you just take the new way of looking at disability first , like historically and honestly still in a lot of context today, like the medical model of disability is what is dominant, right? Like essentially if you have a brain functioning that is different from what is normal, you're treated as impaired like you're pathologized. Um , so in opposition to that model you have other models like the social model of disability, which kind of contextualizes disability to a person's environment and says , you know, you're only disabled to the extent that um , your environment is unaccommodating of you. And similarly, like the neurodiversity paradigm kind of takes to move away from the medical modelization disability , um, and states that actually know things like autism, adhd , Tourette's, dyslexia, ocd , these are all kind natural variations in how a human brain can appear. So they don't need to be treated or cured. And there's nothing inherently wrong with people who have these kind of brains and work in that kind of way . And cause it's like that's quite a revolutionary idea when you think about it as compared to how we've always seen these things when people with different brain companies were like institutionalized and things like that. So it kinda naturally leads itself also into being this human rights movement because by embracing our identities and wanting to sort of be proud of them in the same way that other other minority groups are doing, we are naturally being quite like revolutionary and driving, pushing for our own human rights. So yeah , it's , it's quite complex , complex cause it covers a lot of things, but it's ultimately like a very positive movement I think.

Speaker 3: 2:42

I love that summary. What sparked your interest and why are you so passionate about this topic in general ?

Speaker 4: 2:48

So I was diagnosed as autistic and ADHD when I was 30 years old , so a few , few years ago now . And that happened , it was like a million different light bulbs in my head. So like everything that I was struggling with at the time was cast into a new light. But also like everything that had happened in my past, it was kinda like, like watching dominoes fall down in reverse and my brain over and over again as like, oh, that's why that happened to me. Oh , that's why that happened to me . Which was obviously like a huge thing to go through personally and mostly good, like, it was mostly very like empowering, but I also had this like other scarier moment of realizing that the struggles that I was going through were in no way unique to me. So like the more I listened to stories of others in the community, I saw the patterns of mistreatment and misunderstandings and ableism that were just all too common for neurodivergent people. But yeah, it really changed like all of my priorities when I like went through all of this and had that kind of realization. Like previously I had what many people would consider a dream job. Like I , I was working as a corporate lawyer in London and it was all amazing and kinda walked away from that , from that to be able to like prioritize living authentically as a neurodivergent person and also being able to spend my time like really focusing on this course in multiple ways. So it's become my special interest, not just the person quite honestly . So yeah, a lot of my focus is just on getting the message out there about neurodiversity and the importance of training specifically on the subject because at the moment I think there's just a lot of people who have no awareness, no idea, and therefore they have no idea about the potential harm that they're also calling the neurodiversity people in their lives. So having that awareness and being able to make like very small adjustments to be slightly more accommodating to people, it just makes such a huge difference. So yeah, that's, I dunno, that's, that's my summary. That's

Speaker 3: 4:40

Great. Uh , and that's what this podcast is all about, making those accommodations and how teachers can make accommodations for students. One of the common questions that I think people get confused about is the , the term neurodiversity and , and how it's different from the term neurodivergence. If you could explain that, that would be fantastic.

Speaker 4: 4:57

Yeah, so I like to think of like neurodiversity includes everybody, even if you haven't got a D H D , autism, Tourette's, any of these other different neuro types or what we would previously call conditions, they that fall under what is neurodivergent. Even if you don't have any of that, then you are considered neurotypical. But then that means that your brain functioning is like that of the majority of people and therefore like society's norms are accommodated to you. Like things that we consider to be polite or successful. Um, those , those are very much neurotypical definitions of polite and successful. Same with how we teach and how we work. All of those things are very much accommodate , uh, set up to accommodate neurotypical brain functioning. And if you have any neurotype other than neurotypical like , uh, like adhd , autism, dyslexia, et cetera , than you are neurodivergent. So it's like a subset basically of people that fall into that neurodivergent category. And the reason they say like neurodiversity includes everyone is because even within that neurotypical category , like I , I think some people have a kinda a logic reaction where they hear that word neurotypical, but we're not saying that everybody in that category's brain is exactly the same. Cause neurodiversity means the opposite of that, right? We're acknowledging that even within that neuro neurotypical category, everyone has an individual brain functioning. Everyone's brain is absolutely unique. Yeah. I think it can help to think of neurodivergent as an umbrella term to cover anyone who has a neurotype other than neurotypical and neurodiversity is describing the natural variation between all of our brains.

Speaker 3: 6:29

Yes, that's perfect. And it comes back to that biodiversity comment that you made earlier. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Speaker 4: 6:34

Yeah , definitely . Exactly.

Speaker 3: 6:35

Ok . So why do you think that it's so important that educators be aware of different neurotypes and be aware of, you know, each individual student's needs?

Speaker 4: 6:44

I think often educators are in the best position to spot someone's neuro divergence quite honestly . And like I'm hearing this more and more like, it's incredibly common for parents not to be able to see their child's neurodivergence because they in fact on neurodivergent themselves and they dunno it, but they don't think it's unusual behavior or they , they don't think it's strange . They think everybody struggles that way and it's just not true <laugh> . So I think that's, that's one , one side of it that's like they're kind of someone who has a lot of contact with, with the person but not necessarily is of the same like genetic makeup that they can't see what's like right in front of them. And then if you look at other forms of education as well, like even into tertiary education or even just like coursework that you're doing, the educators are in a good position to be at a spot patterns where like students might be struggling or like basically spot patterns between students as well and see sort of more at a holistic level. Whereas a parent obviously can only see for their their one one child or their , you know, their , their few children. So I think it , yeah, they're in a really powerful position also to be able a signpost to support and um , potential diagnosis resources rather than like also punishing that student for being neurodivergent. It's a very important position cause educators give students a lot of feedback, right? And neurodivergent students, whether they weaving their neuro divergent or not , a lot of the feedback we get is negative <laugh> cause they're not compliant suicidal norms and things. So I think it also like being aware of neurodiversity, how it can present also means that you can have a real impact on, on a student. Whether they feel shame about the neurodivergent traits or whether they feel empowered by them, whether they have the right resources to actually like rely on them or whether they're sort of trying to mask their traits. Those are all very much impacted by you <laugh>. Um, so yeah, I think it's very important to be able to step back and consider whether like a student is actually causing a problem or like they're actually struggling academically or whether there might be an alternative explanation that's actually just their bring up .

Speaker 3: 8:38

That's really great. Let's delve a little bit deeper into what or how different types of neurodivergence impact how students learn.

Speaker 4: 8:46

Yeah , so I think maybe I'll just start with an example from my own life , right? The stereotype for autistic people for example, is that they are excellent at maths. I am very good at maths, right? But for me, math , this has been very up and down depending on my environment and the way that I was taught. Like I was either at the top of the class or I was failing. And I think that can also like be, should be really like a red flag to educators, right? When you see that kind of thing. Because obviously like I, I have a brain for it, but I'm, I was very much struggling. So for , for example, like when I moved from primary school to secondary school, I was so used to the way that my primary school had taught maths and how they communicated and what the expectations were and the examples that they used that I , when I moved schools I started failing maths for the first time and it wasn't the only time as well, like when we started doing trigonometry, I've just recently been that for a lot of autistic people we conceptualized base and shapes differently. So for me, like how trigonometry was explained to me, just it sounded like gobbledy goop . Like I just couldn't process it to this day. Like I have no idea about trigonometry and yet like for all the other math subjects I was like excelling. So I think noticing, being able to like mean , just knowing that like how those things were explained to me , um, wasn't working for my brain and seeing, being able to see like the patterns there of like, oh she's failing this, but she's like really good there. That's, that's strange what's going on? Yeah, so just like explaining like how my environment and my teacher really impacted my ability to perform academically. I think those impacts of being neurodivergent, like it's really hard to say overall like oh this is how it's gonna show up or this is how it's gonna impact a person . Even if you could say like, oh dyslexia, like people will struggle to read or ADHD people will struggle to pay attention for that long . Those are like very broad generalizations. So I think it's really important also like one look at the individual but two look beyond the stereotypes that you'll see because it might not necessarily be like reflected accurately in each individual person.

Speaker 3: 10:42

Yes . And there is a lot of talk in the community about how, you know, a lot of our stereotypes are based on, you know, old studies and there aren't a lot of new ones that reflect, for example, women that are neurodiverse and how, you know, historically young boys have been diagnosed as A D H D fairly readily whereas in comparison women haven't. It's really interesting. Um, but that, that's a really good point that you made about how we should look beyond the stereotype a little bit because sometimes we just don't know enough and that's the actual problem, which is why exactly kinda , you know, spot those patterns and start to investigate a little bit . That kind of brings us naturally to the next thing I wanted to talk about, which is early intervention. So signs that teachers might spot and seeking help for students. A great one of those as you just mentioned was just spotting things that don't quite add up. Are there any other things that you think educators can be on the lookout for in the classroom? Whether it be a virtual classroom or an in-person classroom?

Speaker 4: 11:40

I think what you were just talking about is actually a really important point. Like, like women obviously being diagnosed much later in life than men. Um , as autistic and adhd, it happens with both of them . It's not necessarily because they, there is a female type of a d adhd , a female type of um , autism. It's because they um , manage their traits and mask their traits very differently. Like a lot of women because of societal expectations on women , uh, naturally mask their traits to a very, very high degree. And so we might, we won't be presenting as that hyperactive little boy in the classroom, right? We're often presenting as a very quiet little girl or the girl that like daydreams out the window. Like it's, yeah, it's very much specific to each individual but then often the love of that hyperactivity is very much internally directed. But I think yeah, having a good relationship with your students and kind of understanding also what's going on for them internally is very important because for so long these things have been diagnosed and even the diagnostic criteria has been developed based on how these things present externally and how it impacts other people . But that's not really what we should be doing, right? Like it really should be based on the person's internal experience. So I think yeah, talking to your students and getting to know them and understanding what's going on for them internally is always gonna be. Yeah and I think also listening to like if you wanna sort of get good at recognizing these signs, right? The place to go for that information is to listen to neurodivergent adults, but there's a lot of people sharing their experiences online now. Like that's the best tool that you have to be able to then take those experiences and be able to recognize them in your students like diagnostic criteria out of date . Like not necessarily best tool , the best resource to rely on those experiences that people are sharing online. It's , it's invaluable. Um, yeah and then obviously I would just add like if we we're going into the early intervention conversation, like being very sensitive when you approach those conversations as well because the person obviously might have no idea , um, they might have be very sensitive about kind of someone suggesting this to them , but yeah, being prepared with like having done your own research and resources that you can point them to, like that's always, always gonna be good thing as well.

Speaker 3: 13:52

That's great. It's really important that sensitivity, especially when they might not know what is going on. They're not seeing it because it's their normal which is

Speaker 4: 13:59

Yeah, exactly. Very

Speaker 3: 14:00

Important to note . Okay. So I'd love to talk about communication, sensory needs and other individualistic methods that teachers can use to help with learning for the future of this amazing neurodiverse world that we're in. Mm-hmm

Speaker 4: 14:16

<affirmative> coming back to the phrase like we often say if you've met one autistic person, then you've met one autistic person. And we say this because autism's a spectrum where individual traits can be extreme at either end and appear like in any combination. So that sounds like a very vague statement, but to put into an example, like if , if you take that stereotype talking about of the like young, young white boy , um, for an autistic person it would be that they don't show any empathy, right? That would be the stereotype. Um, and that might be true, that is true for some people, but a lot of other autistic people ex report like extremely high levels of empathy to the point where they get overwhelmed and they don't know how to respond. So it can manifest externally in the same way but the experience internally very differently and that kinda or hyper experience can happen like with all of our autistic traits and in any kind of com combination . So we might be hyper empathetic but then hypo like sensory stimulus. Um, so that can mean we have like these very, very psychic profiles. So like if you take that kinda idea of if you've met one of us, you've met one of us, extend that to all the other neurotypes as well. Each student is gonna be very uniquely impacted by their own traits and they're gonna need their own kind of unique accommodations. That said , there are a lot of things that you can do, I think we'll probably come to this a little bit later, but you can do to make your environment like more inclusive upfront so that it's more likely that more neuro students will be default accommodated like neuro typical students already are . Um , but if we go back to your point about like communication as an example, there are multiple ways that that might be impacted by different types of neurodivergence. So for example, some people might need to have all of their communication or at least all verbal compositions followed up in writing because they have like auditory processing disorder and it's very common with ADHD and autism to struggle to comprehend verbal information. But they might need to have that in writing whereas other people might struggle to read and struggle to process written information because of dyslexia or because of a D h ADHD where it's just too much for them on one page and they might prefer verbal conversations. Um, and then for some people, like an in-person conversation might be too much cause their sensor environment is too much for them to be able to concentrate on what you're saying. And for others like video calls might be better than phone calls cause they need facial cues to pick up on tone and meaning. So like it can become quite complicated and because of that like giving options and letting the individual decide which of those options is best for them is always gonna be like the best approach. And it's similar with sensory experiences. Like we're all very, very unique on that front. So some of us will find like certain noises or textures completely unbearable and like experience physical pain from them, whereas others will find those same noises or textures like pleasant and seek more of them. Um , so in the same with like how we use sensory experiences to regulate ourselves when we become dysregulated or if we're going to shut down or meltdown , um, some people listening to music will help them in that situation. Others it's gonna make it even worse. So yeah, it's really important to just like be led by the individual cause they're really the expert on their own reality and what they're experiencing.

Speaker 3: 17:26

Yeah and I think one of the things that makes it easier for in e-learning for example, is everyone can be in their own environment and that allows them to have their own, you know, they've got their own desk chair, they've got their own, you know, maybe they've got sensory items around them that help, maybe they've got a , they've got a fidget toy. You know, those things do help accommodate as kind of a default, which is fantastic. One of the most important things that we talk about at , at Moodle is having various forms of content. Like the most important content has to be in various forms because we really need to get that key message across. So a great example that we use is, you know, if we're gonna do a video we've also gotta have it written. You know, we've gotta have the content written and there are other ways of making it more accessible. You know, subtitles are a great example, transcripts, and as you said, some people need communication followed up by text because of the auditory processing issue. And that is potentially something that you could have at the start of a, of a course. You know, okay, what are your communication preferences? How do you like to be communicated with just tick a box. And then that allows each individual to think about it and consider the multiple options. If you just have one way of communicating with your students, it's just email or nothing that might make it harder for some people.

Speaker 4: 18:38

Yeah , definitely . And multiple context , right ? Like the pandemic and working from home for example has led to the biggest increases in employment of disabled people in ever <laugh> . So yeah , it's definitely more accessible to us when we're able to control a certain amount of our own environment. Awesome.

Speaker 3: 18:59

And that kind of actually comes to a great point, socialization. So one of the things about e-learning that's interesting is often there'll be forums or there'll be social media groups, there'll be WhatsApp channels, there'll be things like that. Can we talk a little bit about how neurodivergent people socialize differently?

Speaker 4: 19:17

Yeah, I think this is a big one and I think it's like there are , I think there's like specific things, right? Like autism for example is it is a relational communication based disability. Um, like I often say that autism is its own language and its own culture and that adds like a very unique layer of complexity for autistic people when you're navigating those kind of group environments. But if you kinda zoom out from that and look at neuro division people as a whole, I would say that um , what we're saying earlier about like neuro people being given so much negative feedback in their lives, like there's an often cited statistic that a 10 year old with ADHD has received 20,000 more negative bits of feedback in their life than a neurotypical child, right? So we can often , um, develop from this, we can develop social anxiety and just not even , even if we don't develop social anxiety, we develop rejecting sensitive dysphoria. So become like very, very effective when we feel we perceive we're being rejected. So like interrupting in those things can be like very, very scary for us as well. And also we don't know often social rules what's expected of us and that kinda thing. So , um, yeah it can be quite intimidating for us to to to join those kind of spaces. It can be a lot easier for neurodivergent people to socialize within their neurotype just because it's people that kind of get that shared experience and there's a lot of like understanding and validation there . But having said don't think it's students should be kept separate , that's mainstream environment is definitely like the way to go. But making that environment like more welcoming and ensuring that everyone who's participating in it has a really good understanding of neurodiversity so they're not kinda making judgements about people. Um, and instead like approaching people with curiosity, it's definitely really important.

Speaker 3: 21:05

I wanted to talk about how to give feedback and you were talking about how how much negative feedback that someone that's autistic might have received in their lifetime. And that is just, it's awful, isn't it? So we really need to become better as a society at being better at giving feedback <laugh>.

Speaker 4: 21:23

Yeah , I think people think good at giving feedback and then like I'm like, oh , um, yeah ,

Speaker 3: 21:29

From school all the way through to working, you know, it's always an important skill that everyone should know how to do. Um , definitely.

Speaker 4: 21:37

Yeah. And I think , um, rethinking like I , you hear a lot about this like compliment sandwich, et cetera , but I think rethinking the fact that you , you're like necessarily right about your feedback. I , I think that should , that shouldn't be your default position, right? I think approaching the situation with curiosity , um, is always a way to go. Because even if the person is not neurodivergent, it might be that you've just misunderstood something or misperceived something. And if they're neurodivergent, like it's gonna , especially if they've got like a pathological demand , it's profile of autism , like the feedback is very, very difficult for us to take if we , if we're PDA because we kind perceive anything like, like as a demand, we're just gonna stop doing it even if it's positive feedback. So I think approaching fitness feedback is like, oh hey I noticed you did X thing. Like can you tell me what was going on for you there? And then let them explain like actively listen to them like make sure you're listening and then explain like, oh how I perceived it is y which like I understand I might be misinterpreting you . And then like how can we work together to find a solution so that we're both comfortable moving forward. I think framing it as questions and as a collaborative kinda exercise rather than just statements about like, you did this thing and it's wrong , like it's gonna go done so much better. And also like always throw in some positives . I think that that kinda kinda counts with like whatever you're doing as well. Like throw in a few good things you've noticed as well. So you that the person's like obviously not just feeling like you're perceiving all the negative things about them. I think that approach like jumping in with curiosity instead of jumping in with judgment.

Speaker 3: 23:14

Yeah and I think that comes back to instruction as well. Like if a teacher instructs a student to complete a project and the instructions aren't a hundred percent clear to the student, then however they choose to take it isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just shows that our brains do work differently and

Speaker 4: 23:29

Exactly it's , that's just like creativity, right? Or literal thinking. It's just those natural kinda traits that we have, which are not bad things.

Speaker 3: 23:38

That's great. I wanna talk about accessibility online courses and real classrooms which are both really important under this topic. There are a heap of organizations that have developed principles for creating neurodiverse and a neurodiverse inclusive environment in online classrooms. So I will link some great resources in the show notes for anyone that is interested in reading those. But I have adapted some of the principles to specifically apply them to Moodle and e-learning. So I'd love to talk about a few of them with you. So one of them is sensory environment. So of course as I said earlier, e-learning tends to lend itself better to be a good fit for those who have sensory needs. Cause they can be in their comfortable setting doing whatever suits them. So one of the things that we recommend is to, if you do require video conferencing at any point that teachers should say at the beginning of a course that students don't actually necessarily have to have their video on so students can be comfortable in their own environment. Is there anything else you can suggest in that area?

Speaker 4: 24:37

Yeah, no I think that that's like super important because one of the big things about like, like when I'm sitting in a classroom or even when I'm sitting in a work environment, I really struggle with being perceived. Like I think it comes back to that negative feedback thing of like there's always someone watching you watching what you're doing wrong. And so like, yeah, being feeling like I'm being watched is like I can't focus, I just, I will just sit there pretending to focus. So yeah, being able to turn your video off, especially also if you're like being over like overwhelmed or like meltdown shut down kind of situations . Being able to do that and just give yourself a little bit breathing space is super important. Like for me personally, I think some of the things that I like about like the online space is like being able to watch videos in double time cause of my adhd. Like I just can't listen to people and speak at a normal face . I get too impatient. And then I think we talked about earlier like having the slides and having the transcripts also to help like my auditor processing so I can go back and look at them afterwards but don't have to rewatch all the video . Yeah. And then for me, like with online courses, I really need like also frequent reminders of what I'm meant to be doing. Um, which kinda keeps a sense of like urgency cause um , people with ADHD are often motivated by that kind of sense of urgency. So that kind of keeps me interested in the courses and going through it. Um, but yeah, those are like very unique to me, kinda things that help me in online learning. But I'm sure you have like a lot more that you guys implemented that .

Speaker 3: 26:01

Yeah, so one of the things we suggest is predictability as well. And I think you kind of spoke to that a little bit just then how you were saying it's great to know where you're meant to be up to. So having like, okay, this is set out for week one, week two, week three, whereas a self-paced course can be more difficult for someone, for example with a h d because that urgency is not there. Yeah, you're

Speaker 4: 26:20

Not gonna finish it <laugh> , you're gonna really love it at the start and then just not be able to finish it. Totally. That's a

Speaker 3: 26:27

Great one . So having clear procedures around , you know, within your middle course for different scenarios will help maximize predictability. You can also increase predictability of a course with a really clear content flow. So that might include a course outline and keeping every single section consistent. Like this is for week one, this is week two, this is for week three. So that's, that's a great one. Another one we suggest is to be really clear, so this is, this is a very basic language one, but avoiding jargon, using plain language, being really clear about instruction and what the desired outcome is. And we did talk about that a little bit within the feedback section. So it is best to avoid clutter wherever you can because it can split focus in a, in an online course. And if you're using terms a student may not know, the best way to make it more accessible is to actually put a glossary in there. So for video content maybe you wanna also include subtitles, transcript and make sure the speakers really clear. So there are a few little things within that section of being clear, but we did, yeah, we did talk about them a little bit

Speaker 4: 27:26

Earlier. Yeah, no I think that's , um, that's really important, especially for like the autistic side of rew , right ? What , when I start a new course, I need to have all of the information front . Like I need to know exactly like what I'm gonna need , like what , how I'm gonna be assessed, like what you're gonna provide me when it's gonna be provided, like when you're gonna check up on me. Like I need to know all of those things right at the beginning. I need to have like way, way more information and in a very, very clear format. <laugh>

Speaker 3: 27:51

Another one that we, we always stress is to show the key information. So obviously within an e-learning course there's so much information but you, you need to make sure that the way you design the course has all of the key messages as the hero. So all of the key messages and concepts you want to use hierarchical design, you wanna use additional contrasts and other design elements to make sure that, you know, the key, the key learnings that people are going to undertake within the course are really clear to every student. So it might mean presenting them in different content , content formats. So presenting 'em in different ways and enabling the student to digest them in a way that suits them. So maybe that what might mean, you know , you've got a reading on one topic but then you've also got a video or we've got a panel discussion. You know, there's different ways and some of them are really simple, but you can present content in an alternative format. Maybe you wanna add an audio version for those who would rather listen than read content as well. So yeah, you've, you've already kind of spoken about that, so I think that that's okay .

Speaker 4: 28:53

Yeah, no I think that's definitely, yeah, that's really important. Cause even if I'm doing all the things or even if I'm listening in double speed and I'm like, I've got notes so I can , um, I dunno don't have writing notes while I'm trying to listen. Uh , it can , I can , I can just be stuff that I just do not process like from a video. So if it's followed up with a worksheet or like a quick summary or something like that, like I'm much more likely to, to take stuff in.

Speaker 3: 29:19

We do have this really cool feature which is, it's a way you can make video immersive and it's called branching scenarios. And what it is is you can add different buttons into a video. You might have seen a similar thing on Netflix shows semi-recently, which is really cool. So what you do is change up the content format and it's a bit of like gamification and experiential education, a little bit of storytelling, choose your own adventure kind of thing. Whereas you continuously prompt the learner to make decisions within it. So the way that you utilize them is to, you know, provide them different choices and allow them to take, take charge, which is really cool and feedback is provided, you know, in a dynamic manner. So it enables students to understand the result as they're doing it. It's a really cool integration for Moodle, which I'll add in the show notes as well because I think that one's a really interesting one that I would love to test out as a learner .

Speaker 4: 30:13

Yeah, that sounds really cool. I think especially for people with a h d , right? The more you can turn into games that <laugh> , I think it drives like the novelty urgency, like the things that our interests, our nervous system kinda thrives on. Um , yeah , that , that sounds great . <laugh>

Speaker 3: 30:30

Dopamine. Yeah, <laugh> . Yeah . The other thing you did talk about a little bit at the start, which was, you know, when it comes to that motivation of deadlines, so I wanna talk about timing. So one of the things that I suggest is to give all assignments with a reasonable time allocated so well in advance. As you said earlier, you like to know what's coming and when it's coming. So I think minimizing those last minute requests is really important and not setting that expectation at the start of a course that students need to apply immediately to everything that comes their way because yeah, that, that itself is not very accommodating.

Speaker 4: 31:06

No, exactly. And I think it's interesting, right ? Cause it a accommodates like a multiple different neuro types as well , like for the autistic side of me, like that helps me to feel like a lot less overwhelmed cause I can, I can plan, I can make my own schedules, I can feel like can control of that. But also with a D adhd, we have a real tendency to want to leave things to the last minute until they become urgent because we thrive on that kind of urgency. But ultimately if we , if we're living our lives that way, like very consistently, then we're going from emergency to emergency to emergency and it's really not good for our nervous system . So can also help us to implement our own kinda good strategies to, to stay on top of our learning rather than leaving things for the last minute as we're kinda naturally inclined to do . That's

Speaker 3: 31:47

Great. And I think the final one that I, that I really wanted to highlight was being flexible. So for teachers and educators to be flexible with their approach and not just provide the same kind of course content and do things the way they've always done just because they've always done them that way. And so I think it's really important to ask for feedback from students at the end of the course and be actually be prepared to take it on board . So you know, as you said earlier, you've bet one autistic person, then you've bet one, but it's still really important because accommodations don't just help one person. They'll , you know, the more accommodating you can be, the better for everyone.

Speaker 4: 32:24

Um , and I think a lot of the time, like if someone makes a suggestion cause it's gonna accommodate them . Like other people won't even realize that it would help them until they hear it out loud and then they're like, oh yeah, I would really like that too . <laugh> .

Speaker 3: 32:37

Yeah, that's a great one. And I've heard a few people talking about that recently, like accommodations don't just help neurodivergent people, they help all people, you know, sometimes having, you know, a , whether it's a quiet room at university or whatever it might be, it can help a multitude of people that need that that don't realize that they need that. Especially for those that are undiagnosed as well. It's really important.

Speaker 4: 32:58

Exactly. Or you've just, yeah, you've got something big going on in your personal life, whatever, like there are so many different reasons why you could need to take, you know, take space for yourself.

Speaker 3: 33:08

Is there any accessibility of real in-person classrooms that you would like to talk about? Is there anything else that you feel like we haven't hit with the other suggestions

Speaker 4: 33:18

In , in physical classroom? Yeah. Um, I feel, yeah, I think personally there's like quite a lot to do there mainly around, yeah, the sensory experience because it's like quite strictly regulated. Especially if you think back to like primary school, secondary school. Um, like I can remember being called out in assembly because I took my jumper off and then, cause I was obviously I was overstimulated and like trying to regulate my body but I couldn't regulate my body temperature so I took my jumper off and then I was like, oh no, I'm actually cold . So I put it back on and then I got told off taking my clothes on and off. Um , and I can remember that from when I was like 10 years old. So I think like more work needs to be done to allow students to listen to their bodies and take their blazers off if they need to and go to the bathroom when they need to. It's so important cause neurodivergent people for many reasons we already struggle with like interoception, like understanding our bodies' internal sensations and so forcing us to like not listen to our needs can make that even worse and have like very long-term consequences for us. So I think in that space there's a lot of a lot of work to be done about like, why do we need these rules other than for control, there's no , there's no real reason behind it. So yeah . And I think also just what we were talking about before about like really struggle to be perceived by other people. Um, and so like also making those kind of like time out spaces and like quiet spaces available without keeping them, just like letting people kind of use them when they need to or use <inaudible> when they need to , that they can get a break from those kinda experiences of like being perceived or being overwhelmed in that kinda environment. Does those things like yeah, really need some work <laugh> .

Speaker 3: 34:56

And I think that all comes back to that key concept that you talked about earlier, which is approaching with curiosity, not judgment. You know, having that as the , the main thing that you think, oh you know, I might have some internal bias about you know, what has to happen here or you know, how this has to go, but maybe I can just ask them what's going on for them first before judging.

Speaker 4: 35:18

Exactly. Exactly. Well

Speaker 3: 35:20

This has been so fantastic, thank you so much. I wanted to make some suggestions about how to learn more about this topic, more about you. Any recommended resources for educators or learning institutions that you'd like to recommend.

Speaker 4: 35:32

I can't overstate how important it's to learn from lived experience . So I think if you start googling on this topic and more like, especially for things like autism, you will find a lot of pathologizing medical model information and that is not where we want you to go. <laugh> , there are lots of lived experience educators like myself who share like a lot of free content online on every social media platform you can think of. You'll be able to find some of us and we also work with you, right? Uh , either through one , one consulting or things like training programs. I do coaching , um, like there's a lot of ways that we're trying to sort of help our community and get this message out there. So we are also willing to help you. I personally have a collective, which is like an online platform that you can join where I also spoke post content specifically for allies and for employers. So it's like longer form content than I post on social media. It's like more complex, more in depth . So it's good place to learn as well . It's called The New Deal for Neurodiversity Collective, if you wanna search that one . And

Speaker 3: 36:32

That's actually how I found you for this interview today. No ,

Speaker 4: 36:35

Amazing <laugh> ,

Speaker 3: 36:36

Great resource, wonderful newsletter and everything. So yeah, definitely sign up for that. Thank you so much everyone for listening, and thank you so much Lizzie Summerfield for being our guest. We'll catch you all. Next episode on the middle podcast. Bye for now.